Subscription service

[pugs]

About a year or so ago (not long after Gary had included a "level profit" to the Trader i think) there was a horse race in which i had laid the field to very small odds, this race was all but over with 50 yards to go and the leader was 10 lengths clear and trading at 1.01 when someone asked for £50 @ 50 (49/1) on the horse in second place.

I attempted to accommodate them (even though this liability was far higher than i ever play at) but missed the trade and on the next refresh 199/1 was on offer to back at.

I then glanced back to the TV and within a couple of more strides the horse in front began to tread water. I immediately clicked the "cancel bet" on the native interface but after a second or two i realised it had hung on "processing bets".

As panic started to set in i remembered i had the Trader open in my tray and clicked it to cancel my bet from there, at this point the bet had not yet been matched, but i had to scroll to the bottom of the "bets manager" (because of my "lay the field" bets and forgetting the "cancel all") and by the time i found it and clicked it the bet had just got matched.

I then sat in agony for 30 seconds as the stewards decided my fate in the photograph. Then the announcement came and i had just lost the equivalent of nearly 20 years of Garys proposed subscription service because of the error ridden native interface.

Now before anyone says "but you wanted to make that trade" yes i did, but at that point in time it was to my advantage, when it was no longer to my advantage it was software error that stopped me from cancelling, that's why it is so gut wrenching rememorable.

This incident taught me many lessons, one of which is having good software doesn't guarantee success, but it will certainly reduce unnecessary losses.

[terry-shep]

What people say in surveys and what they subsequently do aren't always the same thing. If I were you, I'd wait to see how many do subscribe before handing my notice in. This might be harder work initially, but could be less stressful in the long run, and you can always take a well deserved break when you have given up the 9 to 5!

This is good advice, Gary, don't do any boat-burning just yet. 58% is not that decisive a vote, either. I personally think you should put the improvements into place before you take this step, then BA can compete with Bet-Angel, Bet Trader, etc. in the market, at a suitable price. Considering the on-going costs of these programs, there must be a place in the market for a more functional BA.

People inclined to pay for software are people who make money from its exclusive features, not just to use an alternative interface for Betfair. People who scratch trade the odds appreciate your one-click bets and configurable refresh rate - but you have provided scripts for BF which allow this anyway. The real difference would be stop-loss, preferably trailing stop-loss. The other bells & whistles can be added as time and funds permit. There's no doubt the Excel features are much appreciated by those expert enough to use them, too, that's a positive. I believe that BA, as a properly functional trading vehicle at a moderate one off cost would appeal to pro-traders who resent the on-going costs of the alternatives.

I like BA for its appearance and speed of start-up and prefer it to working through BF's various screens. However, I do nothing with it which I couldn't do with BF itself, if necessary. It's convenient and quick and pleasant to use but not essential to my betting. I would have no objection to a small one-off payment for its convenience but would not be inclined to sub it. Perhaps the idea about two levels of functionality, differentially priced, is a good one?

[MarkRussell]

Hi......Let me introduce myself......I am Gary's brother and have been very much in the background until recently when Gary put his idea to me.

I'd like to make a couple of points about Gary's proposal:-

Firstly Gary really appreciates all the support and suggestions that have made BA what it is today, which in my opinion is a good program that has the potential to be a great program.
Let's not forget that it has been developed by Gary and Gary alone in his spare time which is pretty amazing.
You'll no doubt say I'm biased and yes I am but I can appreciate a good piece of software when I see it.

Secondly, for those people that have given advice on the future of BA....thank you....all advice is taken on board and believe me, no decision is being made lightly. We have had extensive discussions on what is the best thing to do, but remember the risks of going pro are ours and ours alone. If we fail then it's our responsibilty and we will face the consequences.

Remember there are no guarantees in life and you can't please everybody all the time.
All we can promise is that we will do our best.

An anouncement will be made at the end of the week.

All the Best
Mark

[one cool dog]

Hi there

At the risk of being really unpopular, I voted yes to paying for it but cannot use it in the same way I used to, and my profits have been cut massively. I feel I have to vote yes because Gary developed it and he deserves payment for it, but whether I would buy for it month after month is debatable.

My idea of heaven would be a BA basic, much like Bet Angel do, as I only use it for back, lay and trade (green button.) I have no idea how to use the ladder, i do not understand fill or kill and in many ways I do not need to.

People who want the full range of everything and ask for enhancements should be on a pay service, if that is the way you wish to go, but maybe a basic version of the software could be available.

If my circumstances were those of about three months ago, id have no hesitation in saying yes, but I am not likely to ever have that facility again.

However, how can you argue if someone who wants paying for their product. If it was me, Id probably do the same, although maybe the way to go is for the bigger customers who use it to its max.

[excel_toy]

I think you should do whatever - I don't make any money from it - but hey I like playing with it and excel together and I would pay the £10 per month or the £100 per year.............£10 per month is just ~33p per day - who can't afford that !

I don't know your personal circumstances so won't enter the "debate" that others are having about whether you should do this or that.
Sure your clever enough to work out all the pro's and cons yourself.

Did you know there is an "Exchange Shop" which is charging people to come into their"shop" to use their computers which are running your software, Gary ?


http://www.elitebet.co.uk/betr.html - have a look half way down the page to see what software is installed on their "Dell (P4 3.00GHz, 1024MB Memory Dual Channel) system PC with a flatscreen monitor" - think these people should be the 1st paying customers

You might also want to contact these to see if their "own" 1-click software could be replaced by yours...

http://www.exchangebet-incardiff.co.uk
http://www.bettingexchangeoffice.com

Why anyone would pay good money to sit at someone else's computer to trade all day is beyond me......

excel_toy

[greenbrokerjohn]

I think some members have just about got it right regarding what they want from BA. It appears as if the export to Excel feature is very popular.

I hate to sound suspicious, but I bought a similar software recently. It consisted of a one off payment and free upgrades. This didn't sound too bad, but the upgrades kept coming thick and fast, so IMO the software was never really beta tested. The authors might argue that changes were owing to 'popular demand', but these 'demands' should have been met before final release. I really to find it frustrating to continually 'upgrade' software.

To cap it all, a charge was made to re-install the software everytime for £50, in case of a hardware crash etc.

I have used horseracing software in the past where I lost the data because a 'protection' file was corrupted during a data transfer. That cost me another £50.

I'm all for plain, straight-forward, reliable software with no overheads, gimmicks or catches. Maybe a one-off fee for the software and a small annual fee including new releases?

As a software writer I would aim for a wide base at a reasonable price, rather than screwing a few.

Let's hope you keep it free. Some of us are not flushed with money, but we like the software and a punt.

[coolbear]

Hello Gary,

I have been away for a bit and just came upon your post.

You have my vote and whatever way you chose to go you will do so with my blessing all the way from across the Big Pond!

I do believe that the advice to go slow is sound, especially if the project is to support both you and Mark (and families?)

Do you have an idea of the size of the potential market and its reliability? If so, are you certain it was based on sound market research and have you or Mark done the necessary due diligence. This is a major turning point in your career and you owe it to yourself to examine it in depth from every point of view!

Any PM will be treated in total confidence and answered to the best of my ability. I am an old fart with no programming or handicapping skills but have acquired considerable business acumen over the years. I would welcome the opportunity to help anyone who has been as generous as you.

Best regards,

Coolbear.

[one cool dog]

If you could convert the program to a web-based product, I would pay at least £10 a month !!!!




I still think there is a market out there for that. Wish I was clever enough to do it, but only know very basic Xhtml.

[KingJames]

I'd rather use BA for free, obviously, but like some others, i think that Gary has done a tremendous job to build this software.
10 pounds per month is not that much money and, considering the joy i'm having with BA, i think it's well worth the money. Other tools are much more expensive and not necessarily better.

[pugs]

Good morning all and hello Mark

Mark, i'm pleased to say your post sounds very upbeat and positive regarding your more high profile involvement with the BA, i know this is neither the time nor place but have you and Gary already got improvements in the pipeline? it would be great if one of these was to make the "bet manager" user friendly, but i will save that for another day soon hopefully.

Gary has done an amazing job, there are so many features that are far superior to other apps

Speed of launch
Multiple easy access to markets
Pleasing and less painful on the eyes
Rapid execution of bets (other factors willing)

And yes when you factor in this was all done in his spare time it is truly amazing. So lets hope you and Gary get the support you need and deserve, £10 a month £100 a year is nothing, i think we all know there are software providers out there that are about to charge £350 per month with an entry level of £100 per month, i wish them luck but think you may have a few more customers shortly.

For everyone out there that only uses Garys software for fun or testing Excel, i'm sure Gary & Mark will find a way to accommodate all if we all give them our full support.

G/L Everyone.

[robbi100]

Hi,

I'm using BA from about 2 months and I had decided to make a donation when Gary proposed the subscription, at this point my donation will be the subscription itself.

Of course everybody loves free stuff, on the other hand many may agree that keeping and possibly improving BA quality is worth the suggested price, anyway Gary has the right to choose for a life he probably likes more.
I just hope BA won't become expensive like others platform out there over the years, but even in this case who can blame Gary, he got skills that can earn him money, why not? Btw I think that improved software and the suggested price will bring him many customers and the money he deserves in the long term.

Yet this is a time of a big decision, doubts are all around, I know some, it took me 2 years in the mid nineties to quit my safe and very well paid job aiming for a better life, it's a big step, painful and exciting at the same time, so here under are my 2 cents.

From what I read I understand that not everyone here uses the same features and more important not everyone is willing to subscribe, if I were you, Gary, I'd charge a very cheap price for a basic version then I'd offer 2 or maybe more packages of additional features that customer can choose to install paying an additional fee. This way you won't lose all those that today use BA just for fun, maybe they will subscribe for additonal packages sometimes, this flexibility would be appreciated by the intermediate user as well. I believe it can bring a broader clientele, I'm not a computer guy and I may fail to see relevant technical aspects, but there's a company who does it.

It may sound like I want save a few money and actually I'd love it but I doubt that what I use will cost less than 10 pounds, maybe I'm going to spend more....and will regret what I said

Best of all to everybody and many thanks Gary for your efforts.

[guinea pig]

If I might add my 2p - if you go the subscription route I think it would be fair if you retain the program up to the current version as free/optional donation as that is what was originally intended. Any further versions should then be subscription only.

Having said that, after reading the above post about places offering Betfair trading stations using your software, if I were you I'd be fuming! Is there not a "for personal use only" clause in your agreement?

Whichever way you go I'd like to add my thanks.

[pugs]

Gary always said his software would be free, and now look, he wants us to pay for it. Why?

Is he doing this to try and milk us, or in an attempt to get rich quick? Well i don't think anyone is stupid enough to think that charging a limited clientele £10 a month, that will ever happen. So what does that leave?

Gary tells us its so he will have more time to develop the programme, great, i have a few things for his consideration, but i think i can safely add a little more to it than that, he probably wants his life back.

For years now in his spare time Gary has been working on his "one click trading software" amongst other very useful things like "Betfair scripts" and "Firefox refresher" All of which require updating and testing whenever Betfair code changes screw them up, and lets not forget this forum and his website, all for our benefit. I remember the last time the Betfair scripts stopped working, I had never seen so much activity on Betfairs general betting forum asking if anyone knew where Gary was lol. Would any of us put so much effort and "overtime" in on a donation basis, after a days work?

I know £10 is not just £10, its an extra £10 on top of what life already costs us every month, but for the use of the software, support, and development, imo represents outstanding value.

I think Gary has become a victim of his own success and we owe him at least a little of his life back.

Best regards to all.

[GaryRussell]

Pugs. Thanks for all the kind comments. If we could afford the pay you could be our public relations officer

Announcement to be made this evening.

[doubled]

Agree completely with Pugs. Just as long as Gary maintains the non-api version i am more than happy to subscribe.